He went on to say, as others have suggested, that America has to press the war effort in Iraq, because it's really a war on terrorism, and we must "defeat them abroad before they attack us at home."
In other words, "better you than us."
Imagine what that must sound like to Iraqi families who must risk their lives to gather at a neighborhood restaurant or stand in line at a bus stop. I suspect it sounds like "We're sorry to continue putting your family in mortal danger from these terrorists who are blowing up as many innocents as they can find, but if we don't stay and fight them in your country, they might come to our country. If we don't fight them on your streets, they might come to our streets."
That may sound logical to Americans in search of homeland security, but it can't sound very comforting to ordinary Iraqis who suspect that the continued attacks would cease if the terrorists' primary targets went home.
It's hard not to post the editorial in its entirety. This one really deserves to be read in full. I've left the best lines unquoted.
24 comments:
Okay, Professor. Your suggestion is what, exactly?
It's easy to complain but much harder to formulate a realistic alternative. If you cannot do the latter, maybe you should be a little more careful in doing the former.
Else, you come off as a partisan hack who's more concerned about scoring cheap shots against the Bush Administration and Christian conservatives than about the lives and liberty of Americans or Iraqis.
Dr. Bruce,
Thanks for the post! That is a great editorial. I especially appreciated the part that said, "From the beginning, it has been clear that the war in Iraq has been more about American interests than altruistic intent. And, America has paid a terrible toll in lives, casualties, and dollars, but it is appropriate to acknowledge that the Iraqi people are now paying the greatest price."
The good news is that the mainstream in America is beginning to wake up. People are finally understanding that Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. They are finally beginning to understand the terrible price that we are paying with the lives of our children. And they are coming to understand that tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis have been killed as well. Many of them Christians.
It's time to make a plan to get out.
---
Anon,
Your comment is needlessly harsh and baseless. I, for one, give almost no credibility to a poster who screams anonymously. Read the editorial and comment if you'd like, but just attacking Bruce anonymously doesn't score you any points with the thinkers who hang out here.
Peace,
Mike
In your criticism about my posting anonymously, I can find nothing that actually addresses the point -- that it is easier to complain than it is to offer a realistic alternative.
(Who's more cowardly? An anonymous voice of reason, or someone who refuses to address a legitimate point raised by that anonymous voice?)
We need to plan to get out? Okay: what should be our plan, and how do we help ensure that Iraq doesn't disintegrate into anarchy when we do?
And while I have your attention, I welcome you to read this and tell me again that "Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11."
Read it and know that you are defending the indefensible.
Anonymizer,
The article you cited said, "the primary goal of this war... is to destroy the network of Islamic militants who declared war against the United States when they bombed the World Trade Center on February 26, 1993, and finally jarred us into an appropriate response when they demolished that complex, struck the Pentagon, and killed 3000 of us on September 11, 2001." Let's see now...How many of those who attacked the USA on 9/11 were Iraqis? Oh, yeah, that's right... NONE! So our leadership wants to kill people based on their "Islamic" (to quote your article) faith. Unfortunately, this war is killing not only Muslims who had nothing to do with 9/11, but it's also killing Christians in Iraq, and it's killing our kids. You can use all the propaganda in the world to justify your ideology of death if it helps you sleep. I for one will stick with the teachings of Jesus and Paul.
Speaking of addressing the point... your original comment had nothing whatsoever to do with the point. Your baseless attacks on Bruce are seen clearly as someone who is angry at the truth and so you attack the messenger. Again I say, If you want to comment about the article or discuss a real issue with us, that's fine. But no one here gives any credibility to anonymous and pusillanimous personal attacks.
I'm just a guest here like you and I don't make the rules. I'm amazed at Dr. Prescott's patience with anonymous dive-bombers who swoop in under cover and drop irrelevant and snide remarks on an otherwise civil conversation. On my blogs I just delete that kind of tremulous, off subject junk.
Maybe you should consider starting your own blog that specializes in attacking Bruce (and you can attack me, too, if you want). You wouldn't be the first go-getter to do so (unless, of course, you are the first).
Peace,
Mike
You wrote, "Let's see now...How many of those who attacked the USA on 9/11 were Iraqis? Oh, yeah, that's right... NONE!"
So, because the 9/11 terrorists weren't Iraqis, it doesn't matter IN THE LEAST that Saddam Hussein had clear ties to terror in general and al Queda specifically?
I suppose, 60 years ago, you would have opposed military action against the Germans because the Pearl Harbor attack was caused by the Japanese. That line of reasoning is, even in the best of circumstances, simplistic. When we are dealing with supranational terrorist organizations that want to kill us by the hundreds of thousands, that line of reasoning borders on the suicidal.
I can't believe I'm writing this to a supposed doctor, but we're not killing people because of their faith; we're killing them because of their intent to murder us -- man, woman, and child -- and that intent just happens to arise partially from their perverted version of Islam.
Yes, this war has resulted in the death of innocent Iraqis and of American servicemen and women. Their deaths should not be trivialized, but they must be considered in context -- just as a rational human being would consider the casualties of WWII against things like the invasion of Poland and the Holocaust.
Most of the deaths of innocent Iraqis and of American soldiers are being caused by terrorists in Iraq; why are you so unwilling to hold them responsible for their own actions?
You "will stick with the teachings of Jesus and Paul"? I welcome you to explain precisely how the New Testament forbids governments to engage in any and all military actions. And I ask if you are willing to be consistent in your position and condemn both the U.S. Civil War and WWII.
Do you think the South should have remained free to enslave an entire race? Do you think the Nazis should have been free to exterminate an entire race?
You think my original comment was utterly off-topic? You don't care whether or not Bruce actually has a better alternative to our present course of action? You think even asking about an alternative counts as an ad hominem attack?
It's a fair question, Mike. If Bruce doesn't like what we're doing, he can be called on to present a realistic alternative.
Neither you nor Bruce have the courage to face the fact that we live in a violent world. You don't have the courage to give a reasonable, realistic alternative to our present course of action. You don't have the courage to face the truth of Iraq's ties to al Queda and other international terrorist organizations. You don't have the courage to acknowledge the atrocities that occurred in Iraq under Saddam.
You, Mike, are a man who is clearly unwilling to support the hard, necessary thing to protect western civilization from barbarians who wish to murder us all. Any cowardice I display by posting anonymously pales in comparison.
Let me ask you something else, Mike: do you celebrate Independence Day, or do you lament the fact that our forefathers were willing to shed blood and have their blood shed for the sake of liberty?
Bruce & Mike, Why do you refuse to acknowledge the brutality of Saddam upon his own people? I agree with the other anonymous completely. You ARE nothing but partisan hacks here and to me, you have no gratitude for the freedoms and blessings that this country offers us and they DID NOT come cheaply. If you don't appreciate this great land, why not ship out to Iraq and "enjoy" their freedoms?
Given that this is a blog that deals with mainly Christian worldview issues, for the most part, I have to admit that I'm taken aback by the vitrol you spew, Anonymous. Dr. Mike Kear has some very valid points... people here are willing to reasonably debate important issues of our day in a relatively open way.
Instead of reason, you perverted the focus of the original post and attacked both Dr. Prescott and Dr. Kear. You complained of Dr. Kear of not addressing your point when he pointed out that you didn't address Dr. Prescott's point. Who's blog is this again?
Stand up and identify yourself. Hiding behind your logic to mask your identity doesn't hold up. Furthermore, you contradict yourself by questioning their Christian beliefs with arrogance, instead of reason and debate. I agree with Dr. Kear... you have every right to start your own blog and to pound out your hardline views, which you seem to do very well.
But to jump on someone else's blog and reveal so much anger and disrespect? Just because you believe in a violent world doesn't mean you have to engage folks in a like manner.
Oh, and to question someone's patriotism? That's completely unneccesary. Our Constitution allows debate and criticism of our country, and *gasp!* you can do that AND still love your country.
Please stop the hate.
Anon, here's a history lesson. Hitler declaired war on the U.S. after Pearl Harbor in support of his ally. That is why we waged war on Germany.
Here's a suggestion, we can declare victory and pack up and go home. Everyone knows we will eventually. We can either cut our losses now or we can cut our losses five, six, seven years from now after spending Billions of dollars and an untold loss of life and disability on both us and the Iraqi's. If you are so hell bent on fighting over there enlist, but most of those wanting to stay in Iraq don't have children being sent over there to possibly die. We could have cut our losses in Vietnam in 1968, but Nooooo Nixon had to stick it out for four more years 25,000+ lost American lives and what did he accomplish? Absolutely nothing. We have nothing to accomplish in Iraq, because it is not our fight. The Kurds, Sunni's and Shi'ias are going to have to work it out on their own. Bush stupidly stirred up a hornets nest over there, but our staying there will only result in our getting stung even more.
Nathan, I wasn't questioning anyone's patriotism; I was asking a legitimate question. Unless I'm misreading him, Mike seems to think that all military action is against "the teachings of Jesus and Paul."
It stands to reason that he thinks we should not have gone to war to become independent. It is not "questioning his patriotism" to ask whether Mike has the courage to take his principle (such as it is) to its obvious conclusion -- namely, opposition to the American Revolutionary War.
You just got finished telling me how "people here are willing to reasonably debate important issues of our day in a relatively open way." Well, it's a reasonable question.
Greek, I have a history lesson for you. Four lessons, actually.
1) Saddam Hussein spent over a decade violating the cease-fire agreement that ended the last war with the United States and its allies -- and violating resolution after UN resolution. There's your casus belli, if you have the courage to accept it.
(If that's not enough, Saddam attempted to assassinate a former head of state. Remember that?)
2) After we abandoned Vietnam, over half a million Vietamese fled into the South China Sea on whatever could float to avoid facing the "peace" that the Communists brought. Make no mistake, if we "cut our losses," Iraq will be damn lucky if the new regime is only as bad as Saddam.
3) After WWII, it was argued by some that postwar Germany and Japan were problems for the Germans and Japanese alone to solve. Wiser men prevailed, and through the Marshall Plan and MacArthur's work, we now have allies that are economically strong and safe enough to visit on family trips. Because we stuck it out, we're not having to fight the same war over and over again.
4) MOGADISHU. Osama bin Ladin asserted that U.S. withdrawal from Somalia was proof that we were a paper tiger. It emboldened him and thugs like him to slaughter us by the thousand on our own soil. "Cutting our losses" in Iraq will look like a thousand Somalias.
If we pull out before Iraq is stable, we had better start stocking up body bags in our own cities.
I'm still looking for a reasonable, realistic alternative to the present situation.
Greg,
Good idea. Henceforth, only registered blogger users can post.
Anonymous,
The fiasco in Iraq was entirely predictable and was predicted by a number of competent and informed civil servants. Their warning were ignored.
It is time to cut our losses. The U.S. presence in Iraq is now the biggest impediment to peace.
Anonymous,
Most Americans are getting over their 911 paranoia.
I'll pray for you.
Wow... Looks like the dookie hit the fan here last night after I went to bed. Anonymous (in both his personalities) appears not to be interested in reason, but only in flailing wildly and casting insults.
Why is it that these neocons insist that anyone who questions authority is somehow unpatriotic? Why is the exercize of our first amendment rights considered almost criminal by these people? Because I believe that premptive wars of aggression are unbiblical somehow makes me less of an American to these guys. Anything other than "Kill 'em all - let God sort 'em out" and I'm branded a coward. Go figure.
Call me a coward if you want. I'm pretty comfortable sticking with Jesus and Paul on this issue. And I'm still not ashamed to sign my comments.
Peace,
Mike
Nameless one,
You asked, "And I would love to see you tell me specifically what passage in the New Testament forbade the war in Iraq."
I'm not going to do your studying for you. You obviously have access to a computer. Find a Bible study site like Bible Gateway or Crosswalk and type in "peace" or "war" or whatever for yourself. Reading is not unAmerican. Neither is thinking for yourself.
You might notice that no one else is challenging me on the position of Paul and Jesus. Why? They've read the New Testament for themselves. Go and do thou likewise.
I do commend you for one thing, though. You intended to toss out straw men and rabbit trails in order to avoid the original issue. Good job.
Still not ashamed to sign my comments.
Peace,
Mike
Another straw man. Throwing a childish tantrum won't make the truth go away. Trying to insult me won't help your position. The truth is the truth whether you like it (or agree with it) or not.
Now, I'm going to go and spend this holiday with my family. I am thankful for the grace of God and the sacrifices our forefathers made to give us the freedoms we enjoy. I'm not going to be able to go back and forth with you, anonymous. So just let me say this (and I mean this in all sincerity). Have a happy Independence Day! Whether we agree or not, I can see that you care deeply for our country (whether you can see that same care in others or not), and that you want only the best for her. I truly wish you a good holiday. Blessings to you.
Still not ashamed to sign my comments.
Peace,
Mike
Hey Greg,
Just a thought... mom2: yet another incarnation/personality of anonymous? S/he did use the first person pronoun in the question, "Why should I be so impressed with Yoder?"
I'm smiling.
Peace,
Mike
Greg,
I'm sure you're right. I was just having a flashback to the conspiratorial days of my fundamentalist past.
Still smiling.
Peace,
Mike
Hey Anon,
This is in response to all your posts on ?What are we fighting for??. I?ve just about heard enough out of you. Since you love this administration and your country so much, why don?t you and all like you go down to your local army recruiter and join up. My son did right after 9-11. He left a good paying job to serve his country and work for pennies while possibly sacrificing all for your sorry ass. Why don?t you help our soldiers out? They need it desperately?that?s why he is being stop lossed, he should be getting out of the military at the end of this year, but no, because the military is stretched too thin with not enough recruits, he has to go back to Iraq in October with a bad back and a hearing loss after already serving a 15 month tour of duty in that hell hole. Stop stroking on your keyboard and make your way as fast as you can to your local army recruit. Uncle Sam is calling. Besides I don?t want to go through another year of sleepless nights. I want my son home now! You can take his place.
mom2,
It's Mrs. Friedrich, though I expect that Mr. Friedrich would agree with her.
I know her and her son well.
Her anxiety and anger is real.
She doesn't need lectures from armchair debaters.
anonymous,
It seems to me that I've seen this reductionistic line of questioning before.
Luke 7:20; 20:22; 23:3; etc.
Jesus didn't let his interrogators frame the questions either.
Mom2,
All of us would do well to spend more time in prayer. However, anger, if well placed, isn?t always bad. I, quite frankly, don?t understand why there is not more outrage. Thanks for the prayers though. It's appreciated.
Anon,
You took my post much further than it was intended. Fascism? Please, that?s ridiculous. The logical conclusion to my post is that I am just a mother whose son has gone and will go again to war. My heart aches inside. If you agree with what this administration is trying to accomplish then I say again - you should join up. It might teach you a lesson on courage that you are so lacking. However, my son would probably tell you to stay put.
Bruce,
Thanks for the support. It is desperately needed.
Anon,
I'm not saying any such thing. You are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is: you need to either grow up or get a life. My posting is done.
Anon,
I said I was done posting.. guess not. I am, however, now in the middle of cooking supper. Just came back to see if you were still sitting at your computer. Ah! I was right..To answer your question. No you don't have to change your position if you're not willing to join up. But if you did join, be willing to make a sacrifice for what you feel to be for the greater good, it would make a better man/woman out of you and I think you would learn something in the process. Now, I hate to walk out on good conservation, but hunger is calling!
Anon,
Thanks, I hope to God you are right, I really do. Time will tell. Has anyone ever introduced you to Riverbend-Baghdad Burning? Just type that in your search engine. You will find her there.
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